“You’re fucked anyway…might as well get fucked.”
In this two-part episode, we dive into a touchy (heh) topic: CHRISTIANITY. Did it mess us up? Did it change the way we think about sex? Probably. But let’s discuss…
Christianity & Sex Show Notes
Okay we are back, and scattered as ever! You may remember we spent some time last episode discussing Evelyn’s upbringing as a Jehovah’s Witness, her cancer diagnosis, the freeing nature of impending death to allow you to have sex, how religion affected our childhoods, and many other topics like porn and The Princess Bride! Now we would like to share some more thoughts on the impact Christianity had on our adult lives.
Christianity as Adults
Maisie muses on how she gets more religious when she’s drunk. She has a specific memory of being in Spain, being really drunk, wasted honestly, peeing in a public piazza, going to a Catholic church and having a really spiritual moment there. She found it soothing.
Kelly also occasionally had sudden moments of suddenly believing in God (usually when she was watching The Prince of Egypt, tbh), but it never stuck.
Maisie points out that the way religion gets you is the nostalgia. The comfort and safety of a long time ago. It feels good to step back into that role and those patterns. Even though her family hasn’t gone to church, to Christmas mass specifically, they always consider it.
Lucy remembers the last time she went to Christmas mass she was really saddened by it. Lucy had already left the Church at this point, but the moment still hit hard. She knew she’d miss the tradition and the memories of her time with her family. Church and religion provide a solace and comfort, a community, especially when you’re older.
It’s a compelling reason why a lot of people, when they have children, go back to church. They want to create a sense of community. Maisie is concerned she will be one of those people who goes back to Christianity when she has kids.
Gina is frustrated because she thinks people believe only religious education provides a moral structure. Public schools can properly teach morality! Church and morality are not the same, but religion does supply a pre-packaged, ready made type of morality. Morality that is especially appealing if it was the framework you were raised with.
Not Being Brainwashed by Religion
Sissel never really felt a sense of community in religion. It was just another place she felt ostracized and out of place in her childhood. She did retain a love and appreciation for the art and drama of it. Catholic Cathedrals are her favorite architectural marvel, just anywhere really. She always lights a candle and sends it to her mother. As a tribute so to speak, despite being a non-believer. Her mother is a very personal-faith Catholic. She was always open to Sissel not being religious, she just wanted her to go to church every Sunday until she turned 18 and get confirmed. For her soul, you know?
Religion in Sissel’s household was a very passive thing. They just went to church every Sunday, and didn’t discuss it much out side of that. Sissel argued about it every god damn time because she wanted permission to not go to church. However, she didn’t want to outright refuse. She wanted to earn the lack of attendance. Spoiler: She never won the argument.
Because of this, she never really had the moment of leaving the faith, it was just inevitable. She did briefly believe in Catholicism after watching the Nativity Story. Which was very much framed in a YA Fantasy lens (the key to Sissel’s soul).
Kelly got this same sense of belief from Indiana Jones. Maisie from Vicar of Dibley, Hannah attempted to believe by going to a Lutheran Church with her Grandparents and bemoaning the lack of cute boys. Her dad was upset that she attended this church, but he never spoke to her about it, she found out second hand from her sister. Typical of him, not actually talking to her about anything.
Islam? Or Just Performative Religion?
Gina wonders if Hannah’s dad has ever talked to her about leaving Islam? Hannah says she’s not sure if he’s ever “left” Islam, most of his family doesn’t seem to be very religious. She has an aunt who’s the Queen of Shade, who offhandedly remarked on calling a cousin for Eid, because they actually believe in the Islamic faith. She feels like her dad is a Muslim in the same way she is a half Muslim, half Lutheran, and her mom is a Lutheran, in name only. Like how a lot of us are Catholic. It’s kind of an inextricable part of our identity, even though none of us are actually Catholic anymore.
We couldn’t leave Christianity for long…
Lucy talks about how her mom converted to Catholicism for the marriage, and the family attended Mass until their kids were eighteen. For Lucy, Church wasn’t really about the religion for her, it was time to meditate and think. A time to make her sister laugh by singing songs in weird ways. How low can your little drummer boy go!?! They’d end up getting in trouble with their parents for their shenanigans. She was not a good Christian child.
When Gina and Lucy were in high school, Gina’s dad actually called Lucy a heathen. It was not a great moment. Very fraught with angsty tension.
Gina liked church as a child because she felt compelled by some very well done sermons. She found out about the systemic raping of children by the Catholic church during a sermon by a priest who’d had an interaction with a woman on a plane calling him and his faith out for the atrocities. He used this as a pivot to talk about judging before knowing, and how complex the world is, and Gina found the priest’s story to be very impactful, and gave her a lot of respect for deeply religious people.
Lucy and Sissel feel fairly blessed, in the way non-religious people can be blessed, that they had some very decent and atypical priests. They attended a very liberal church, one of our priests supported gay rights and the other rode a motorcycle. #CoolDudes.
Religion for Bad Behavior
The part of the Catholic church that Gina respects the most is the personal aspect of the religion. It’s not evangelical, and nobody feels pressure to convert anybody. But that privacy, in addition to a religious system based on a strict (male) hierarchy, can cause some dark shit to grow.
Using religion as a creator of community is one thing, another is pushing these expectations on children and young girls. Repression isn’t a good thing. Which is something seen in Jehovah’s Witness communities as well. In Australia specifically, there were multiple churches that were havens to pedophiles. People use religion to perpetuate horrible things, as it turns out.
Evelyn is discovering, as she broadens her social network, other Jehovah’s Witnesses who were raised with totally different beliefs than she was. Religion is so dependent on the leaders of the faith that shape it. In her town, there were some strange dynamics brewing do to the intersection of Lutherans, Catholics, the outlying Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Fuck Me In the Ass Cause I Love Jesus
So, there’s a funny thing that Evelyn has heard tell of from some religious youths, which is the idea of avoiding TECHNICALLY losing your virginity by just having anal sex. She asks those of us more experienced with Catholicism and Protestantism…is this really a thing?
Technically Catholics are not supposed to have sex. Period. Full stop. To quote Call You Girlfriend : “Your judgey god is already judging you.”
For most of the Throbbers, they knew very few people in high school who were having sex. The first time Sissel even had the concept of teen sex proven to her was on a mission trip, and one of the girls was telling a story about her mom helping her get birth control so she could have sex with her boyfriend. It completely blew Sissel’s mind! Her Catholic mother had gotten her birth control??? And green-lit her sex life???
Kelly talks about the laziness to our brand of Catholicism. You can only feel so much Catholic guilt before you stop caring. Just have regular sex, you weirdos. So to answer Evelyn’s question…it’s probably a thing, but maybe not as prevalent a thing as people might think.
It might just a be a rural America thing. Multiple versions of religion have their own weird loopholes and fucked up views around virginity…
Virginity!
If you listen to us regularly you might know we have an episode about losing our socially constructed virginities: Hidden Valley Ranch!
The whole concept of virginity is made up, and a tool of the patriarchy. But outside the issues with virginity and the patriarchy….we question whether anal would be a pleasant introduction to sex. Do you children know about lube???You’re probably going to hurt yourselves, dummies! Evelyn points out that her sources on this were mostly boys telling stories about anal… so… might be sus testimony.
Lasting Impacts of Religion
How have they affected our perception of sex and relationships? Sissel feels mostly unencumbered by her Catholic upbringing excluding an inkling for marriage being important.
But really we live in a fairly religious society, whether you practice or not. Even cross culturally marriage is important, regardless of your religious affiliation you might still feel inclined to wring those wedding bells. Marriage isn’t necessarily a religious entity at this point. Marriage is still common cultural norm, an expectation of women in this world.
Evelyn has a friend who grew up in Spain, who was shocked at the wedding industrial complex of the U.S. The whole culture around it is so sad and toxic. Weddings suck soooo much money, they are a strong tool of capitalism. Many see it as the ONE day that is devoted to you, your one chance to have a big party. Hello Bridezillas!
Weddings!
Hannah is rejecting the idea that religion can be involved in her wedding, and she will do everything and then have even more parties all through out her life!
Honestly the only reason Evelyn is here is because she wants Hannah to marry her and throw her a dope party! She’s been a bridesmaid and maid of honor too many times, thrown so many bachelorette parties, and never had a party for herself. She wants a party!!! (Hannah throws great parties, she threw Sissel a Super Soft Birthday Party right before the pandemic hit.)
Super Soft Birthday Party
Evelyn is actually obsessed with Letterkenny, and was supposed to see them live… Fucking Pandemic.
Generally, the take away from this episode is buy some Monolo Bloniks and throw yourself a fucking party.
Gina recommends looking up how much Evelyn spent on all these other wedding parties for her friends, and start saving that money for her own party. Evelyn bought one bride a laptop, the bride being the one who tried to get her to orgasm, so our immediate shock transformed into…quiet admiration. Seems only fair.
Hannah believes she’s spent a thousand dollars accumulatively across all the weddings she’s been a part of. Including gifts, bridesmaid dresses, and travel.
Sissel was a maid of honor once to an incredibly down to earth thrifty woman so the bachelorette party was a free bike ride.
Gina was in a wedding party once and the bachelorette party was just a sleepover in a cabin.
Lucy has faith that all of us will work very hard to not have anyone go into debt for a wedding.
Back to Religion
When you’re raised in the moral framework of religion, particularly Christianity, it is hard to think outside the box. Evelyn is a serial monogamist, and she’s always been in long term relationships with men. She knows she’s capable of so much love. Even in her childhood, she was interested in finding relationships that fulfilled different sides of her self; the extravert and introvert, people who fit different situations, different sexual desires. But it’s so hard to imagine that when she hasn’t really experienced it.
This is where Sissel plugs Feeld (It’s a dating app but for polyamory and group sex, FYI)
Sissel does not feel like she’s capable of polyamory in a completely equitable way. She likes having a close group of friends who she can rely on for emotional support and fun parties, and a mostly exclusive sexual partner who she can plan a quote “future” with. Sissel also likes having sex with people who don’t have any of these close emotional ties. She and her partner have been exploring Feeld as a way of bring people into their relationship, instead of exploring outside their relationships.
Polyamory Elsewhere
Evelyn discusses how the West coast has all these communities that explore polyamory. She finds these really compelling but she doesn’t really understand how to exist in this framework, how to explore polyamory, and she feels like that’s something that her upbringing really is holding her back from.
Evelyn would like to explore the idea of having parallel relationships of equal depth and importance. She’s always been in very long term relationships with very possessive men. During a brief period of time when she was single, she was really struggling with how to exist within this lifestyle as “normal.” She didn’t know how to explain it to her parents, they were very confused, and she felt uncertain with how to deal with it. Should we even discuss our atypical relationship practices with our parents? Most of the group says no lol.
Kelly brings up the point that religion mostly shows you marriage in relationships through only one lens. It’s not necessarily wrong, but it is restricting.
The Patriarchy
The Patriarchy only persists if we shackle ourselves to men for support. The interconnection between patriarchy and religion is fascinating, because it has brainwashed the whole world in a way. There are other paths, but they are hard to fathom, and we’ve set up a system that is totally based on this framework.
Any forays into polyamory bring into question our reliance on marriage as a legal function of society.
Maisie just thinks polyamory seems like a lot of work… But is that a good reason to outlaw it? Why are we making a law about something so intrinsic to personal existence.
Gina conflates polyamory and polygamy here, but she makes a good case for how particularly men abuse polygamy and that is part of the reason the laws exist is to protect people, women, from predatory behavior. R Kelly is a great recent example about how trash men can be.
Government & Marriage
We have so closely tied our government to marriage which is mildly fascinating as a thought process.
Maisie and Sissel school Gina on the chicken and the egg of property and marriage. Property and money came first, and men wanted to know that the babies were theirs in order to make sure their property stayed attached to them. Gina then spews some lawyer at us… we are confused. Matriarchal societies do not have this because, well, you know where the baby came from.
The whole dowry aspect and women being a way to form alliances is so intrinsically part of the identity of marriage.
Religion existed before marriage, and motherhood was an intimate part of this. The intersection of religion valuing motherhood, and the patriarchy valuing money and how these things interact is terrifying. It’s one of the things that Evelyn has been fascinated by in Catholicism.
Paganism
The origin point of Christianity and our Western world seems to be when the Roman empire became Catholic and converted the rest of Europe. They took the pagan faiths of Europe and coopted the parts of them into Catholicism. Catholicism is super pagan realistically.
Sissel thinks its fascinating that we see Catholicism as this serious stoic religion, but originally Catholicism was once so dramatic and exciting, especially compared to Protestantism which was just so dull and dark and dreary. The only real benefit of Protestantism was the value on universal literacy and the destruction of the corrupt Catholic hierarchy.
Evelyn comes from a very long line of poor essentially Protestant famers who finally scraped their way to the United States.
How to Ruin Religion
Hannah is just so angry that people make something as cool as religion and then make it SO boring! She thinks she could find comfort in religion to alleviate her fears about death, but the rest of it is so annoying and she just can’t get behind it.
Maisie just thinks people take religion too seriously and then they ruin everything. She makes some mildly problematic statements about the Middle East’s problems being solved by not caring about religion so much, but it’s misunderstanding the nuances behind the political situation there. Hannah really lays down how religion is fascinating until governments and power get involved and then they use religious doctrine in totally horrible ways for completely non-religious reasons.
Sissel thinks whenever you decide a concept or guideline for life is the ONLY one to live by you’ve inherently ruined it.
Missionaries and Proselytizing
Growing up as part of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Evelyn was expected to proselytize (quintessential Jehovah’s Witness door knocking), and she feels that that strategy left her with little room to discuss religion without an agenda.
Speaking of proselytizing, Sissel went on a mission trip as part of her confirmation process. It supplied the most points towards confirmation, which is a very Catholic thing. As the child of mildly problematic white man who was obsessed with other cultures in a racist way, she’d always been fascinated by Native American culture, and she wanted to see the Pine Ridge Reservation. She also did not realize how fucked up it was until she got there.
Her mission trip created a day care that teenagers ran on two week shifts. A fucked up system of psychologically traumatizing children who are still form their attachment style because they’re parents are going to use the free day care because its FREE! Immediately upon arrival a child latched onto her while the camp tried to indoctrinate the children. During one of the storytelling sessions about Jesus, Sissel was trying to distract the girl from the missionary work and she asked if the girl believed in Jesus and thankfully she said no.
Evelyn loves Book of Mormon, because it really does a great job discussing missionary work and White Savior tropes. And still let’s Evelyn keep a pseudo high horse because at least Jehovah’s Witnesses preach the bible.
Hannah’s friend’s dad, who is Iranian, had some proselytizers come by. He invited them in and he baited and switched them with a bunch of Qurans instead of letting them preach the bible to him! They never came back! What beautiful trolling.
Evelyn has heard the pandemic has been encouraging more people to actually engage with Jehovah’s Witnesses. Turns out, we really are just that lonely.
The End
This is truly the end. Thank you so much for listening to this two part episode! Listen to the end for special clip about the movie Saved after Lucy’s mic cut out and she stopped recording!
Thank You For Listening!
We are all able-bodied, cisgendered white women. We know our background and experiences only cover a percentage of those around us which is why we want to supplement this with guest speakers, research, and you. If you have opinions and experiences you’d like to share we would love to hear it! If, however, you just want to spew hate at us then we can’t stop you but instead we invite you to suck our collective clitorises. Hater. This podcast also contains mature sexual themes and swearing. No, clitoris isn’t a swear word.
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